PS: I meant to add...

That it really should be no mystery to anyone that Kamala Harris, Nimrata Randhawa, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Øb☭ma, Juan McAmnesty, etc. are not eligible for the office of President or Vice President.

This stuff is so simple that even wikipedia and google know it...

https://i.ibb.co/473vdXt/Natural-Born-Citizen.png

Cheers! ☮️

PS: Good morning, everyone,

And good morning, Mr. Alarmist!

So, while I cannot find that original citation I was looking for, (I swear I read something about children of diplomats and children born on military bases of citizen parents being natural born citizens pertaining to American law. But, than again, I do have a vivid imagination...) I did find some of the English common law that I was thinking set the precedent that children of diplomats working abroad are natural born citizens. (or natural born subjects with respect to the crown.)

The British Nationality Act 1730 provided:

That all Children born out of the Ligeance of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, or which shall hereafter be born out of such Ligeance, whose Fathers were or shall be natural-born Subjects of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, at the Time of the Birth of such Children respectively ... are hereby declared to be natural-born Subjects of the Crown of Great Britain, to all Intents, Constructions and Purposes whatsoever.

This goes along with Vattel's idea that citizenship does not come from a magic piece of dirt but rather comes through the parents, generally the father in English common law. (This is from memory, not a proper citation.)(So, I looked up the quote, here goes...)

“The true bond which connects the child with the body politic is not the matter of an inanimate piece of land, but the moral relations of his parentage. The place of birth produces no change in the rule that children follow the condition of their fathers.” Vattel (Law of Nations)

And here is another similar quote:

“To what nation a person belongs is by the laws of all nations closely dependent on descent. It is almost a universal rule that the citizenship of the parents determines it, that of the father where children are lawful, and, where they are bastards, that of their mother, without regard to the place of their birth; and that must necessarily be recognized as the correct canon, since nationality is in its essence dependent on descent.” Bar (International Law , No. 31)

Another example of citizenship coming through the parents irrespective of Jus Soli can be found in the Plantation Act of 1740:

All persons born out of the legience of His Majesty, His Heirs, or Successors, who have ... or shall inhabit or reside for ... seven years or more in any of His Majesty's colonies in America ... shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be His Majesty's natural-born subjects of this Kingdom.

Prior to either of these statutes, Edward Coke offered a narrower opinion in Calvin's Case (1608). According to Coke: "If any of the King's Ambassadors in foreign nations, have children there of their wives, being English women, by the common laws of England they are natural-born subjects, and yet they are born out of the King's dominions."

This all makes sense regarding diplomats serving abroad as a U.S. embassy or consulate is considered U.S. soil.

I was mistaken in my belief that U.S. military bases are also considered U.S. soil. They clearly are not.

So, I'm happy to report that the evil John McCain was 𝐧𝐨𝐭 a natural born citizen.

Of course, as you correctly point out, none of this has ever been properly adjudicated and the laws regarding this has been left (purposely?) vague. The congress critters could clear this up if they cared to.

So, many thanks, Mr. Alarmist, for helping me clear up my (mis)understanding of the jurisprudence surrounding natural born citizen law.

I hope you have a great day! ☮️

PS: Greetings, again, Mr. Alarmist,

This isn't the source I was looking for, but...

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-110sres511ats/pdf/BILLS-110sres511ats.pdf

Not that it proves anything about the intent of the framers. Just interesting.

☮️

PS: Greetings, Mr. Alarmist,

I'm under the impression that under English common law citizenship was granted to children of subjects serving abroad and to children of diplomats. Perhaps I'm mistaken and it's, as you say, just accepted and no one has challenged or adjudicated it.

I'll try to find the source where I found that citation about the exception for military and diplomats. It my have been in Vattel's Law of Nations.(?)

Cheers! ☮️

PS: Plagiarism is the highest and best form of flattery...

Yes, Nimrata was born on January 20, 1972.
(Unless the interwebs is lyin' to me again?)

A little moar info...

https://www.villagenews.com/story/2023/03/09/opinion/does-nikki-haley-qualify-as-a-natural-born-citizen/72444.html

https://www.calameo.com/read/005755142586d99abc427

https://www.jayweller.com/natural-born-citizen-defined-part-iii/

https://patriot-fire.net/2023/02/20/nikki-haley-is-not-a-natural-born-citizen/

Evidently the Randhawa family immigrated to Bamberg SC (from Canada) in 1969. To be eligible for citizenship you must be a resident for at least 5 years. Nimrata was born in 1972. There is no way her folks were naturalized before her birth.

Nimrata is not a natural born citizen.

If Bai Dien wasn't such a contemptible person I would feel sorry for him.

☮️

PS

There is no legal basis, statutory or common law, for the status of someone like McCain to be that of natural born citizen. It is accepted as a matter of consensus, and courts have avoided the question by denying standing to plaintiffs who raise the issue. SCOTUS has not opined on the matter. At the end of the day, courts are more likely to punt than on the matter, declaring it to be a non-justiciable political matter, leaving it to the politicians who certify the elections, e.g. Congress when counting electoral votes.

🕉

PS: "I was thinking about the Koch brothers more broadly. There were 4 brothers. David and Frederick have passed." OK, I didn't know about the other 2. The first time I recall hearing about them was in that clip from Bernie Sanders, before he was on the invasion bandwagon: "Open Borders?! That's a Koch Brothers proposal" That was before he was "cajoled" or bought off or whatever.

I agree with you on both points regarding John McCain.

1) I detested that guy.
2) Yeah, it seems like a legit deal there, being born on a base to American parents. I just remember this being talked about, probably by those wanting to say "what about??" to deflect from attention to Øb☭ma's birth questions.

I take it that January 20, 1972 is Haley's birth date?

Yes, it is OK to plagiarize your own material. Worse is to plagiarize others in a speech, something that people were bound to figure out too, as Zhou Bai Dien did in 1988. "People forget", as The Who say. I'm guessing Bai Dien would find it equally hard to plagiarize some Welch coal miner or himself these days with his minimal brain power.

"Oh what a tangled web of lies,
when we deem to self-plagiarize."

PS: Greetings, Mr. Moderator, Mr. Alarmist,

I get it now. When you say the Koch Brothers you were referring to David and Charles specifically, because of their political activity. I was thinking about the Koch brothers more broadly. There were 4 brothers. David and Frederick have passed. Charles and Bill are still alive.

Now don't get me wrong, I hate John McCain as much as anyone. I think he was a psychopath, a shameless warmonger, a traitor to America and an all around horrible person. However, when we talk about the three elements essential to being a natural born citizen there are a couple of well recognized exceptions with centuries of precedent inherited from English common law.

Allow me to plagiarize from a comment I made under post 2624 (because I'm too lazy to look up the source info)...

https://peakstupidity.com/blogworks.php?action=viewbpost&id=2624

[plagiarism]

There are some exceptions that have been universally recognized for many years (centuries even!). John McCain, for example, was born in Coco Solo, Panama in 1936. John McCain was a natural born citizen because he was born on a U.S. Naval Base.

So, if you are born to two U.S. citizen parents on a U.S. military base abroad, you are still considered a natural born citizen.

The other exception had to do with ambassadors and diplomats. If the ambassador to England and his wife, who are both U.S. citizens, either by birth or naturalized, have a child in London, that child is still a natural born citizen.

These two exceptions seem reasonable enough to me. There are plenty of historical precedents in our common law (English common law) to back these claims.

[/plagiarism]

I have seen evidence that Vivek's parents were not naturalized until after his birth. I can't find any information about the citizenship of Mr. and Mrs. Randhawa. I have a feeling that Nimrata is not a natural born citizen, but I could be wrong. If her parents were naturalized before January 20, 1972 then she would be eligible.

Cheers! ☮️

PS: Sorry, Alarmist, I commented just now before I'd read your whole comment. You covered all that.

"Just what we need: Two Indians arguing about how much of the American taxpayers’ money we should send to Israel.” Yeah, I liked that one too.

Vivek comes across pretty damned good, I gotta say. Whether I trust him is another question ...

PS: I'd read of one of them having died, Adam. I checked Wiki, and per whomever, Charles is alive, but his brother David died 4 years ago, to the rumors of his death are not so exaggerated.

Maybe you know something I've missed.

Re the Randhawa couple, well, it's not like this is 2008. Then, Trump himself was looking into the deal with Øb☭ma, as Peak Stupidity did 4 years later - "Is President-Eject Øb☭ma indeed the AntiChrist?"

https://www.peakstupidity.com/index.php?post=69

Then, there were questions about John McCain and his having been born in the Panama Canal Zone. Nikki Haley was born in Bamberg, SC, at least they say, but yeah Birthright Citizenship and Amendment XIV? Nobody cares!, as you wrote.

PS

Afternoon, y’all.

I used to laugh when former NYC Mayor Ed Koch would pronounce his last name as if the last two letters were prounced as the ch in church. Going back to the German-Jewish pronunciation of his roots, it is more correctly pronounced as a certain body part. Same goes for the eponymous Koch brothers, who have thus far lived up to the homonym of their name.

A funny meme after the first Repube debate, when Nimarata and Vivek got into words about money for Israel was, “Just what we need: Two Indians arguing about how much of the American taxpayers’ money we should send to Israel.”

BTW, “Hanoi Johnny” McCain was technically not eligible to be President, having been born in Panama. Kamala Harris was born to two non-citizen immigrants and is arguably not eligible. Ted Cruz, born in Canada to an American mother is also arguably not eligible. Don’t get me started on Barak Hussein Obama, whose reproduction of a Hawaiian birth certificate was signed by U.K.L. Lee as occuring at a hospital that didn’t exist in Hawaii until several years later.

🕉

PS: Good morning, Achmed,

You can say Koch brothers. Two of them are still alive.

And, does anyone know when (or if?) Ajit Singh Randhawa and Raj Kaur Randhawa became U.S. citizens? I can't find any information about that.

It's almost as if* no one cares that Nimarata (probably) isn't a natural born citizen.

☮️